Кто здесь рис, а кто пшено? Галахический эксперимент

[ymarkov]

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According to Mishna Hala 3:7, Mishne Tora Hilkhot Bikurim 6:1, Shulkhan Arukh OH 453:2, etc. there is a big difference between rice (orez) and millet (dokhan). Rice requires the "mezonot" brakha and can become halakhically leavened when in contact with wheat flour. However, Rashi has claimed that the terminology has gotten confused, and that today's orez is the talmudic dokhan and vice versa! The akharonim remained undecided on the issue for quite a while.

T'shuvot ve-hanhagot Hayei Adam 186, sefer Ve-Zot ha-Brakha p. 241, relates the following: Gaon R' Eliyahu mi-Vilna (the Vilna Gaon) decided to settle the controversy experimentally. TB Bava Metzia 40a states that when one keeps someone else's grain mixed with his own, upon return he can deduct an estimate of what the mice have eaten. The Gemara states that this amount is 1/20 for dokhan, and 1/40 for orez. The Gaon had a measured amount of millet and rice stored for a year, and determined that the mice ate 1/20 of the millet and 1/40 of the rice. Based on this experiment, he ruled that there was no confusion in the terms, and the Gemara means rice by orez, etc.

Comments

A question, then, from the ignorant...

[dlevey.livejournal.com]

From your synopsis above, it seems you're suggesting that dokhan does NOT become halachically leavened. If so, would it technically be possible to create a kosher l'pesach beer using millet, even if it might be ruled inappropriate for other reasons (such as appearance)?

Re: A question, then, from the ignorant...

[ymarkov.livejournal.com]

Technically, at least, yes. But you know, some people avoid vodka on Pesakh (specifically, and surprisingly, Lubavitchers) for that reason - most vodka is made from grain. (I bought molasses-derived Carmel vodka last year, and may again.)

Rambam states specifically in Hilkhot Hametz u-Matza, 5:1 - "Only the five species of grain are forbidden to leaven on Pesakh, and those are two species of wheat - wheat and rye, and three species of barley - barley, oats, and chiffon. But the kitniyot, such as rice, millet, beans, lentiles, and the like - there is no concern with them viz-a-viz hametz. And even if one wets rice or like flour, and puts it in boiling water, and wraps it in cloth, so it rises and appears like dough - this is permitted to eat, because it's not leavened, but spoiled [for lack of a better word]."

BTW, nice of you to find my blog. Working on your Russian?

Re: A question, then, from the ignorant...

[dlevey.livejournal.com]

I've had real potato vodka once, years ago, but I guess now they just add flavouring to grain spirits. Sad, really, that it turns from art to chemistry. Interestingly, I've also seen beer (and beer recipes) from millet, sorghum, and I think spelt. Once I finally *understood* that the prohibitions were not on leavening per se but on the grains themselves, it became a lot more interesting. But I'm not surprised that people would avoid various non-chameitz anyway for reasons of treatment (a la chicken treated like beef), cross-contamination (such as rice and wheat) or appearances.

As for Russian, sadly that's fallen off a bit. My younger boy has "graduated" to pre-school, leaving daycare behind. He never really spoke Russian anyway, though I believe he understands it. My elder has all but lost his from disuse, and my lack of skill at languages meant I am not able to drive this at home. But if he maintains even a little interest he may be able to pick it up later. Oh, I finally got around to checking on my server, and found the files you uploaded - thanks! If I can get them to a DVD (the burner is failing with an unspecified problem right now) I expect we'll enjoy them.

I'm glad also to have found your blog (at least, the parts I can read :-) ). I still occasionally check in at SCJM, but I don't post. There's just too much that's aggravating for me, and many times for opposite reasons than why Chano left (and why Josh claims to just lurk). Maybe someday I'll participate again; I don't know.